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PFB Roundtable: Our Thoughts on Mike Holder, Mike Gundy and All This Recruiting Talk

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In case your radio has been on the fritz or you’ve unplugged from social media this week, Oklahoma State athletic director Mike Holder jumped on the PFB podcast with Kyle Porter and Carson Cunningham for an all-timer. He discussed everything from OSU’s recent NCAA Championship in men’s golf to Mike Boynton’s hiring — to Mike Gundy and recruiting.

The latter has gained plenty traction across multiple media outlets including dominating the air waves of sports radio stations across the state. The PFB staff got together to discuss them and where we fall on the questions they’ve brought up.

Kyle Cox: Do you have a problem with Mike Holder’s comments about Mike Gundy’s recruiting strategy?

Kyle Porter: I thought it was correct. If I work for CBSSports.com (I do) and my boss is being interviewed publicly and says “Look, Kyle has been awesome for us. Really, really great. But I think he needs to be a better reporter because, objectively speaking, we aren’t strong in reporting, and I think that can make us the best sports website in the world,” and I hear all that, my only thought is, “Yeah, that’s right.” I’m not mad because he acknowledged the work I put in, and I feel challenged because he addressed a deficiency that I have previously acknowledged. I guess there’s a part of me that’s curious about exactly why there’s so much consternation over the whole thing.

Cox: I agree with what Holder said and don’t really have a problem with him saying it, especially in the context that it was brought up. He was mostly complimentary of Gundy with the recruiting comments were almost an aside to his overall point. He also stated that he and Boone Pickens defer to Gundy as it is ultimately his program to run.

Thomas Fleming: It was a bit eye-opening listening to it but I think he has a point. There are many times when they sign a kid whose other offers were from not nearly as relevant programs as OSU’s. I’m not going to speculate why, and it’s very possible they find character and intangibles more important than hype or star power.

Justin Southwell: I agree with what Holder said in the context it was said. He gave Gundy a ton of praise and said he would tweak the recruiting a little. It sounds like Holder cares about OSU and wants them to compete for national championships instead of seemingly having a ceiling of 10-win seasons.

The road to the Playoff runs through OU, so you’re going to need to come closer to matching their talent level. There’s no question that Gundy can coach, but let’s see him coach with a few 4 and 5 star guys in the mix instead of trying to overcome improbable odds.

Adam Lunt: I like Gundy’s recruiting strategy. He has built an outstanding culture with an elite player development program. He tries to fill the program with kids who have top notch athleticism but are under-recruited/under-developed/under-coached; it’s a pocket of athletes that OSU can capitalize on. Mix that in with strategic recruiting of a select few highly-recruited athletes – mainly ones who show early interest, regionally based or have ties to the program. The problem recently is Gundy and his staff have fallen flat on landing the small amount studs they’ve gone after – Caden Sterns, Deshaun White, Grant Gunnell, Levi Draper, Tramonda Moore (2nd time) for example. I think where Holder’s comments hold water is that the strategy doesn’t work the way you intend it to when you aren’t hitting on a high percentage of the studs you go after. Fill the class with 5 studs (and not 2), and 20 good athletes who can buy into the program and watch the wins accumulate.

Cox: Holder has gotten a lot of scrutiny (and air time) for saying it publicly. Do you have a problem with the way he went about it?

Porter: Not at all — I thought coming on the Pistols Firing podcast was the perfect forum for it! Kidding of course, but I thought it was fine. We talked about a broad range of topics. He told us that we should have criticized him for the Mike Boynton hire. I think taken within the context of the podcast, it was fine. Did it surprise me as I physically heard him say it? Maybe a little bit, but it didn’t feel like he came on with an agenda to get that out there. It just seemed like a thing he thinks that Gundy probably already knows he thinks.

Cox: When I listened to the interview before it was posted, I didn’t really see a problem with it. At least, I wasn’t surprised by it. Mike Holder has never been afraid to express his opinion, especially when it comes to OSU. Whether or not you believe Holder has said (or would say) the same thing to Gundy face-to-face probably has a big effect on your feelings of him going public with it.

Will this renew the (alleged) rift between the two of the past? I have no idea. Do I have a problem with him saying it? No, not in the context that he did. Mostly, because it is true.

Fleming: If I were an AD I don’t know if I would bring it up that publicly, and he said it in such a casual fashion like it wasn’t a big deal. I would have maybe told MG privately, but then again, maybe he’s just a very matter-of-fact person whether it be in public or private.

Southwell: I think it’s being blown out of proportion with the way he went about it. It was a candid moment during a podcast. He didn’t come out bashing Gundy. It was brought up pretty casually.

I’m sure he’s mentioned it to Gundy privately before this. He’s not seeing much of a change in his recruiting so why not put some public pressure on Gundy to get those guys? Holder probably doesn’t have a ton of time left as AD and wants to get over this hump of not beating OU. It’s time to start thinking about a legacy.

Maybe mentioning it on a podcast isn’t the best method of communicating this, but I appreciated his honesty. Gundy can take the mild recruiting criticism if he’s making $5 million a year.

Fleming: Exactly, if someone who’s paying me $5M a year gave me some constructive criticism, am I in a place to complain?

Lunt: That is who Mike Holder is, he is candid in every facet including constructive criticism. I feel he is always trying to find ways to motivate his staff in different ways, I guess he felt doing it publicly was the route to take with Gundy. Traditionally it’s something that should happen behind closed doors, but there isn’t anything traditional about the Holder/Gundy relationship. Passing along criticism is part of his job and absolutely needed, but a different method might be preferred.

Cox: What will it take for OSU to compete for national championships? Does this current recruiting “strategy” put a ceiling on OSU’s success as Holder put it?

Porter: Recruiting classes about twice as good as they’re getting. So 15th instead of 30th. You cannot play for titles if you recruit in the 30s. None of the evidence we have over the past two decades says this is a reality. It has to be an incredibly unique situation (see: Weeden, Brandon) for that to happen, and those just don’t come around very often.

Cox: Just because something has worked so far, doesn’t mean you shouldn’t constantly reassess your strategies. Gundy has raised OSU’s profile nationally to a point where fans, administration, alumi expect more. It’s part of the monster he’s built, as he called it.

Do I think Mike Gundy wants 5-star recruits? Sure. Do I think he settles sometimes. Yes, if that’s what we want to call it, because he’s basically admitted as much. I don’t think he needs to overhaul his entire strategy. I think you can tweak a recipe or two without throwing out the cookbook.

Fleming: I don’t think they ever will, frankly, but I think the program’s ceiling is a bit self-inflicted. It’s going to take about 10 schools disappearing from the face of the earth for OSU to consistently haul in top 10 classes and compete for nattys.

Southwell: We’ve wanted to see less conservative play calling for Bedlam and we got it last year. OU lost Stoops, Mixon, Perine, and Westbrook, and they had to come to Stillwater to win. OSU had plenty of top notch guys returning. The Sooners still managed to get the job done and I believe that’s in part due to their recruiting classes from the past few years.

Gundy, Glass, and Co. are incredible at developing players to compete. Why not go after some bigger recruits to bridge this gap?

Lunt: I think OSU can compete for a national championship with its current strategy, but as we are seeing now, there is a razor thin margin for error. If you miss on a kid (either one that signs elsewhere, or signs with OSU and doesn’t pan out), it puts you back 2+ years behind at that position instead of other programs who are plugging/playing younger kids due to better raw talent. If you look at last season, talent wasn’t the problem. They weren’t facing stronger or more athletic players. If anything the plays made by OSU were because they were better athletes. There were execution issues, scheme issues, mental mistakes etc.

Southwell: I think it’s important to emphasize tweaking the recruiting style. Clearly this has been working to consistently get around 10 wins per year. Keep doing that. The only thing some of us would like to see is a couple more big time players to elevate OSU to the next level instead of banking on developing less talented players to try to compete for national championships.

And I mostly agree with Adam on the third point, but you don’t have to be as reliant on consistently perfect execution or as worried about mental errors if you have guys like Dez Bryant who can break a game wide open.

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